I find the criticism of nice guys idea to be somewhat of a misrepresentation. On the one hand, identifying the label "nice guy" as a title that's shown, not self-imposed, is understandable; being a "nice guy" should reveal itself through one's conduct. However, the way that the material on this site portrays the average nice guy would both make it seem as if those who are truly kind are simply being underhanded and therefore don't deserve to "get the girl," and those who are in fact using "niceness" as a facade to get girls are somehow more reprehensible than those females who manipulate men and are cheered on for it. Conversely, those who have no regard for the feelings of women, and no respect for women, that is to say, "jerks," are seen as real men and truly genuine, because men apparently only act like sub-human neanderthals, thus any man who does not act this way is automatically trying to get into bed with a woman. Or he's gay

Allow me to elaborate. A person who is confident, directed, respectful and considerate toward women, and fairly attractive could be considered a good potential boyfriend, except he's not as interesting as someone who's on the wrong side of the law or enjoys causing pain and suffering, like, say, a jerk. As much as the nice guy has going for him, he doesn't have enough novelty for a girl to be attracted to him, and thus a girl will choose the jerk. And then, two months later, she'll come to the guy who actually cares about her well-being and tell him how she regrets having made that decision. As a person who's been in this situation, I can say that it's frustrating to hear that she's having problems like this, especially if one has offered her the chance for a healthy relationship and she turned it down

Unfortunately, no matter how many jerks the girl runs into, the nice guy will never be attractive to her, simply because...why? Given that he's directed, he has his own focus, and therefore doesn't define his life in terms of hers, since he's making sure his life is what he wants it to be. He's not a worrying loser who wouldn't have the confidence to ask her out, and he's not a self-righteous bigot who would laugh in her face at her problems that arose directly from her choosing jerks over him. He remains her friend despite the fact that she may have hurt him. Now I'm not saying that she should return the favor by getting with him, but why go for all the jerks? What's so much more attractive about them? What can the nice guy change about himself that makes him more attractive to women? He's got looks, respect, money, direction and confidence; what should he improve? By what I've read here, it seems your answer would be that he's either lying about one or many of those things, or there's something else wrong with him. However, by experience, it doesn't seem as if this is the case. Clarification on your stance would be appreciated

Why is it that women don't seem to want a healthy relationship? Bad guys give them something to fix; jerks give them something to heal. It seems as if the only way anyone can be successful with any girl is by tripping blind people at intersections, pushing old ladies off cliffs, or shooting koala bears in the face. Otherwise, they're too "nice" and therefore aren't worth anyone's time

(ctd.)

And then if you do somehow make it past all the testing, you virtually get no green light to go ahead. Unless the girl really wants to jump your bones, she makes no show of attraction, and since the nicer guys tend to respect a girl's feelings and don't want to go further than they are allowed, they end up with nothing. It's no longer just a fear of rejection; it's a fear of being arrested. However, women continue to believe that the half-hearted, intentionally deceptive "signals" they give are good enough, since any guy who likes them enough will ask them out regardless of possible consequences. However, even though guys are required to do this, it never seems to cross a girl's mind to show similar respect and maybe throw him a bone or two

It simply seems as if a nice guy will never be attractive to a woman. Any woman. And it seems as if it's all because he's nice. Respect used to be valuable, but it seems so cheap now, thanks to these types of actions. Perhaps, given the fact that you probably wouldn't have much reason to be dishonest, I will find some answers from you

I don't see why it's necessarily the case that nice guys lack novelty. The novelty of the jerk (to use your phrase) is that he is, in some way, a challenge. The woman wants his attention, and this gives the relationship momentum. However, I don't think that momentum need come from challenge, nor that "jerks" are the only ones capable of providing novelty.

If a woman isn't attracted to a nice guy who has looks, money, direction and confident, and who is respectful of her, it may be because, save for the last, none of these are necessary or sufficient for a relationship. A nice guy with those things may be at first blush interesting, even attractive, but if there's nothing that intrigues the woman behind those things, then the guy's just some guy who's respectful toward her. "Jerks", however bad they may be, at least have an interesting personality, even if the woman ultimately wants to change it.

I would add that the "evil" nice guy is a thing. You see, "nice guys" blame women for not being attracted to them, whereas nice guys accept that they won't be attractive to everyone, and that if they do want to be attractive to a lot of women, they may need to change certain parts of who they are.

Then that only seems to say that women aren't interested in stable relationships, or at the very least have a chronic appreciation for dysfunctional traits some of the time, if they go for jerks at all. It shouldn't be an issue. It would be like ignoring the nice girl at the bookstore in favor of a hooker, because at least the hooker knows how to shake her ass. No one should gravitate to such an extreme to begin with, in the case of long-term relationships, when women go to such trouble to change jerks.

As for nice guys, it's a bit biased to say they blame women. They can bitch about women all they want, because heaven forbid someone have trouble in relationships. Women do it all the time with men. It's like saying people aren't allowed to complain about people. In the case of the nice guy/jerk dichotomy, it can be frustration that she would be with these types of people at all, or just simple unrequited love. For that matter, the evil nice guy myth assumes that there is a problem with the nice guy to begin with. I've seen people go onto complain that nice guys are covert rapists, lying to themselves about everything in their lives, etc, to the point that if a nice guy is too shy to ask a woman out or simply doesn't want to get arrested because of how vindictive women can be today, he's a liar or not a real man, but women are accepted for the same cowardly behavior. Short of being Buddha, decency pales in comparison to shitty behavior when it comes to attracting women. There are guys that do have inferiority complexes or whatever in their overeager attempts to impress women, but to say this is a broad spectrum of males or the most dominant personality trait in men trying to respect women is just pure sexism. Really, blaming oneself and trying to change for that one person can be seen as a sign of an inferiority complex or blaming the object of attraction can be seen as a sign of confidence and moving on with your life away from worshipping your love. We've come full circle. The nice guy is still good/bad just because of [insert reason here]. But jerks, let alone wife beaters/alcoholics, etc. never get this type of treatment.

I can't find it, but it's been scientifically proven though that most women seek out the jerk initially as an evolutionary trait. There was an article I read that basically stated women seek out the alpha male to mate with and have a child with the best genes, of course, but then leave him and seek out a beta, because he's more stable and a more reliable father to her child. It really threw me for a loop that this kind of devious evolutionary psychology has been programmed into women since the dawn of time.

>>5
That's an interesting theory but it doesn't account for how that evolutionary trait appeared (I'd like to read that article if you don't mind finding it). I imagine, entertaining this theory somewhat, that early experiences, like prenatal experiences. The stability of the family, whether the father or mother died before adulthood, among some things - these things affect personality in general though so it might not seem like a definitive explanation in this case... but it definitely affects who the woman will partner up with later on, and it may bring forward a unfortunate environmental conditions for the child who is going to be reared in a dysfunctional family.

I strongly believe women who seek out "dominating" (as in, a-holes) men have had a bad father-figure while growing up. It's similar to how abused women find excuses for their abusers - it might be that they do not understand what constitutes a normal healthy relationship, it might be self blame/shame/hatred. I don't think that every human being is inevitably hard wired to favor abuse or abusers, I think that's something of a festering malicious circle.