Muslims in the United States have proven themselves to be loyal to their country and politically moderate. But around the world, especially in Europe, Islam is increasingly viewed as a danger, and young Muslims as unpatriotic. Is this an appropriate bias in dangerous times, or is it bigotry? And what makes the United States different?
>>24
While I wouldn't claim that any country is perfect in this regard, you CAN'T BE SERIOUS about any of those countries having less cases of abuse than the US.
"Sauce: Certains incidents I saw on TV and in the news that may or may not be true."
Evidence of unreliability of these claims please. (not general claims made my mainstream media, but the ones relevant to the conversation in particular)
now if a Muslim woman strapped with a bomb on a bus
with the seconds running give you the jitters?
just imagine a American-based Christian organization planning to poison water supplies to bring the second-coming quicker
Well, the problem with islam is that there are alot of "if you don't do exactly this, you are not a muslim" phrases, so either you're a fundie or you're a nothing. The Bible has these too, but with protestantism actually gaining the advantage several places in europe back in the days (there were large inter-religious wars back then too), it all got sorta moderated out, but you stills ee the catholic countries troubling with fundamentalists. Now, i don't know that much about the different off-springs of islam (there are many, many, more than just the shia/sunni ones), but i know that there are very secular, or relaxed versions of islam that are preached/practiced. The problem is that alot of these have been slaughtered over the times by the other muslims, and never got a really strong foothold like protestantism in europe.
I think that in the next period of time we will see a sort of a, well, not a revolution, but a stand-off between a more personal or secular version of islam, and the more fundamentalistic one. A ridding of the principles of the qu'ran which are not really usable, the ones that require you to war and convert etc. as most normal muslims that i know of, don't do those things anyway, and as the pressure from the top of the islamic religious societies will require them to do so, they will hopefully rebel.
Protip buddy. Learn some history, the crusades were a military necessity against an agressive and expanding islamic empire.
It wasn't just for fun and slaughtering muslims, it was pushing them away and out of europe. Unless of course you would rather europe have been conquered too?
To Do:
Learn to Read.
Seriously.
I didn't talk at all about whether the Crusades were right or wrong. What I said was:
ASK THE FUCKING MUSLIMS WHAT THE RELIGION MEANS.
I can give you my interpretation -- but I'm not a muslim who grew up quoting the qu'ran and the hadith. I'm a deist. I'm not qualified to interpret other people's religions for them. Muslims know better than I do. They know better than you do.
All religions have scripture, but they also have traditions and standard interpretations of various verses.
Just reading the Catholic Bible (it's actually slightly different from the protestant Bible), you don't have a complete picture of Catholicism. The traditions of the church are just as important. And if you don't know them, you don't have enough information to judge Catholicism as good, evil, or stupid. Do your homework -- find out about the history and the traditions.
Now as far as the crusades -- from what I've read, it was mostly about protecting pilgims visiting the holy land. There were a few wars in Europe. Spain and Romania were invaded by muslim armies, but I don't think they were part of the crusades. But those were separate wars. Vlad the Impaler (the inspiration for Dracula, BTW) wasn't part of the crusades.
> Unless of course you would rather europe have been conquered too?
If it was, you'd be a Muslim bitching that it wasn't conquered quickly enough.
http://muslim-canada.org/islam_is.html#1
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/defeat01.htm
http://www.uga.edu/islam/jihad.html
This may help you to understand about islam and it's views on terrorism.
south Korean christian missionary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G07u0x82aQw
Take a look at the KKK. THAT'S fucking extremist. I understand that the KKK isn't that violent, but when you've known that these fuckers have existed ever since White Man set sail to different countries in search of riches, That's fucking sicking.
looks like no one comes from indonesia like myself
for all those people who said that islam does not teach violence...
please...do come and visit my country with 200 million muslim, you cant go wrong
i do agree that there is always some extremist in every religion, but 200 million ???...it's so damn easy to find an extremist in your neighbourhood
what KKK did in america during the segregation time is almost similar compared to what extremist muslim did to other religion
not to mentioned if you are not a "pribumi"
a simple example of how extremist muslims forced their so called "way of life" towards other religion, in some places, they forced restaurants to close down during the day in the fasting month, please take a note that there is not one province in indonesia that is populated 100% by muslims
i'll gladly answer any questions regarding my dear country
XXzzXX
Islam may or may not be dangerous, depending on the person in question. There are a number of moderate Muslims who emphasize the peaceful verses in the Quran just as there are a number of Christians who emphasize the peaceful verses in the bible. Sharia law DOES allow for other religions.
The main issue I can see being a problem with Islam is that the Quran is held as infallible by all Muslims I have spoken to, much like uber-fundie Christians take the bible to be.Therefore, there's no "well, this may be a mistranslation" or "this was Paul's opinion", etc to deal with. You have to work with what is in the Quran and other sources for Islamic thought.
Muslims are the most danger thing to Europe at the moment.
>>Muslims in the United States have proven themselves to be loyal to their country and politically moderate.
Except when they're getting caught raising money for Hamas and Hezbollah, or joining the Army just to frag an officer, amirite?
>>43
Yes there are demagogues in every religion, so the problem is due to pride and bigotry more than religion. The need for pride stems from insecurity, so people who see that the west is rich and their countries are poor yet have been brought up to believe Islam is the absolute truth and utopia are more likely to become extremists than well off christians in a free society. Demagogues abuse their insecurities to justify bigotry and then hide behind islam when they are criticised for it. The KKK did the same except hid behind christianity and their people instead of islam.
So Islam isn't the real issue, it's insecurity. People in your country just need to accept that there is something very wrong with their culture and they need to change.
In the Quran, immigrating to another country is an act of war. The Quran says that when you cannot beat an enemy, Muslims should immigrate there until they outnumber them.
Everything is an act of racial supremacy and war in Islam.
that is jews do to palestine untill they get their own country = israel.
now they attacking palestine
[b]Islam:[/b]
[i]We're a religion of peace, and we'll kill you to prove it.[/i]
I don't think so. And I dare you to quote the verses that say so. I've read the book, and I never came across immigration as war.
Oh yeah? Well The Quran says you're a doucheface. So there!
>Except when they're getting caught raising money for Hamas and Hezbollah
Oh come on now. Hamas and Hezbollah are not anti-U.S.: they are anti-Israel. Since the creation of Israel, it has spent more time illegally occupying Lebanon than it has spent not illegally occupying Lebanon. Hezbollah are not cut and dried terrorists inasmuch as they are patriots trying to push armed invaders from their country. In turn, the injustices perpetrated upon the Palestinian people by the Israeli government is well documented. While there are extremist elements of Hamas who are essentially aimed at genocide, that does not mark the character of the entire group. I would consider the official platforms (keep in mind that Hamas is a political party in a government) before castigating the whole group based on the ravings of a lunatic fringe. Think back to Arafat's closing comments at the U.N.
>Today I have come bearing an olive branch and a freedom fighter's gun. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand.
>>Oh come on now. Hamas and Hezbollah are not anti-U.S.
wat
The trick is to not import enough immigrants that they're able to form insular little communities. America's Muslims are fewer, so they are assimilated by our culture.
And it's our culture that is the key to ending the menace of Islam. My friend in Iraq makes a lot of money on the side by selling things like porn magazines and booze. Once our culture seeps in some more, and the people have a healthy level of decadence and skepticism, we'll see a much more peaceful Middle East.
>>56
So what's the Arabic Word for doucheface?
>>59
I think assimilation is a good thing, so long as it is unforced. Europe's method does nothing more than piss off muslims by telling them that publicly wearing symbols of their religion is wrong (IE the ban on hijabs in public schools in France). You can't force secularism on people any more than you could force Buddhism or Christianity on people. All you do is create a backlash. The Greeks tried to paganize the Jews, they got the Maccabean revolt (see I & II Maccabees, you can probably read it online).
the thing about islam compared to other religions is that islamic fundamentalism (and i mean proper everything-in-the-Quran-is-true fundamentalism, not like your average christian fundie who follows the bible to the letter when it allows them to attack homosexuals but ignores a lot of the other crazy stuff) is far more prevalent than it is in other religions, mostly due to the presence of the various islamic nations where such fundamentalism is not only normal but enforced by law.
islam as a religion is no more of a threat than christianity, provided the Quran isn't taken 100% seriously, and i think most muslims who emigrate abroad are willing to accept that. the problem is that you occasionally get one or two that stubbornly hold on to the values of their previous country, then they start preaching about jihad and such and the press catches onto it and starts spreading the idea that all muslims are a threat to the western way of life
I'd agree with you except that I don't see World-Wide-WTF-Jihad in the Koran. Every time I see it mentioned, it's in connection with the prophet and Mecca. There are other verses that strongly argue for religious freedom closer to what Jefferson might have preached.
for example:
**Surah 109
Al Kafirun (Those Who Reject Faith)
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(Yusuf Ali Trans Qu'ran)**
Does that sound like a religion that requires likking the infidels? I think the Jihadi movement is a later interpretation, IMO. It's not so much Islam as Islam with 'Roid Rage.
>>61
Yeah, those Muslim nuts are nothing like the Christians who bomb abortion clinics and hold book burnings. State endorsement is not a necessary precursor to bat-shit insane behavior. Bat-shit insane State platforms do not necessarily produce fanaticism - id est Neo-Liberalism and Pinochet. I don't remember hearing any stories about brown people reciting Friedman into a megaphone before setting off a bomb in a mall.
> I don't remember hearing any stories about brown people reciting Friedman into a megaphone before setting off a bomb in a mall.
i love you marry me
Muslims in the US have not proven themselves to be loyal and moderate. They are just waiting. On a side note, I am not a loyal American either. How could anyone be loyal to the US is beyond me.
Fuck the USA.
> How could anyone be loyal to the US is beyond me.
especially when the US govt isn't even loyal to the US.
The US is not loyal to itself or to the people it is supposed to be serving. I agree, fuck America.
I like cock.
>>69
"L'Etat, c'est moi."
--some Eurofag
we don't do things like that in the US. the goverment is not the US.
WTF!!!! This thread doesn't function as it was supposed to be! We need more arguments and facts or everything not some rubbish! Hope there is some people take note on this!
Let's break down your comment sentence by sentence:
"Muslims in the United States have proven themselves to be loyal to their country and politically moderate."
WRONG. In fact, you know a guy named Lewis Farrakan? He is the leader of the "Nation of Islam" (NOI) movement. The majority members whom are black. Wanna take a guess which ethnic group in the United States practices Islam...African Americans (or Blacks). Most blacks are not right leaning and most have liberal/socialist mindsets, therefore not a part of the capitalist system run by the conservative Christians. For the blacks who are socialist and Christian, Jesse Jackson is their leader. Make note that Farrakan and Jackson are buddy buddy for a reason.
"But around the world, especially in Europe, Islam is increasingly viewed as a danger, and young Muslims as unpatriotic."
Islam in fact OUTSIDE the United States is viewed as moderate, especially in Europe and Asia since Muslims are seen as running from a occupier of their lands, Israel. Muslims are only viewed as unpatriotic to ISRAEL. Considering when the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) routinely kills and tortures Muslims for fun, even when they are born inside Israel and are actual Israeli citizens.
"Is this an appropriate bias in dangerous times, or is it bigotry? And what makes the United States different?"
If you are referring to what makes the US different from Europe, is it (BOTH political parties) and Israel are attempting to remove Islam from the middle east. For some odd reason the Christians seem to think the Jews own all of the middle east and have been trying for almost 1,100 years to get it back for them, but without success. Now that modern warfare as been developed and World War I brought down the Ottoman Empire, they are now moving forward with genocide of Muslims.
Why does this bother Farrakan and Jesse Jackson? Because Americans are the stupid group of sheep on earth and after the next false flag terror attack carried out by the government/Israel, people will "demand" that the Muslims be rounded up and put into camps. What do you think will happen when the US government attempts to put every BLACK man, woman, and child into a camp. Oh damn buddy. Gonna be fun to watch.
Correction...at the beginning, I meant to say the LARGEST ethnic group that practices Islam in the US are Black people. Most uneducated Americans/uber-Christians think it is Arabs.
sorry but >>57 is correct. Hezbolla doesn't attack the US and only talks shit about us whenever we interfere with their war against israel. They are not terrorists in the classic sense and thats why Al-Qaeda is constantly beefing with them (that and that they are shia while A-Q is sunni). Hezbolla actually uses much of there economic resources to provide civil services that the Lebanese government is unable to provide (IE schools, hospitals, and soup kitchens). This is why most of Europe doesn't consider them terrorists. We do because we have this stupid entanlgement iwth israel (which is stupid when you consider that they beat the shit out of kuwait, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria IN SIX DAYS). As for the Palestinians, it's a mixed bag. On the one hand, Hammas has a sizable wing of apeshit genocidal maniacs. On the other hand, israel has a habbit of pulling some dumb shit. Some dumbfuck fundy from hammas attacks an israeli military installation, the next day, the israeli military sent AN ENTIRE FUCKING TANK BATALION rolling into the Suburbs. not Mossad to take out Hammas gunmen. No! They like to do what they did in Lebanon over Hezbollas last attempt at a prisoner swap. Punish the civilians for the actions of the terrorists. If china had invaded the states and pulled shit like that on us, you would be apeshit anti chinese too.
As for the rest of the discussion, Islam is not the problem. Organized religion is easily corrupted and is newer than christianity. their religion is about as old as christianity was at the time of the 2 inquisitions, so this all seems to make sense. Traditionally, Islam was relatively peaceful and historically didnt do the OMGWTF KILL THE INFIDELS thing. Even in the crusades, while Richard the Lionheart and other Christians routinely tortured and executed captured muslims, Saladin forbade that treatment of captured knights and had them treated like normal non muslim citizens. They were not to be tortured or killed and were fed. It is only until after world war 2 that muslims became radical. Go figure, thats about the same time that Israel was formed out of a peice of land that belonged to Muslim herders. Radical islam isn't even as common as the media makes out. Much of central and northern africa is muslim. With the exception of the Janjaweed militia in Sudan, most of africa's muslims are not american killing, jew hating fundies. They are rural communities that live under sharia law and down bother most people. They tolerate non muslims provided they pay their tax and do not advocate blowing up busses. This is largely true of egypt too (which is technically part of africa.) also, most muslims in kuwait and most Persian Gulf countries dont have beef with us. Some of them, like the United Arab Emirites and Saudi, are our allies and fundimentalist islam is banned. Hell, Dubai (which is in UAE) tolerates Michael Jackson. Do you think OSama bin Laden would tolerate a boy fucker? Radical Islam would call for jackson to be stoned to death. clearly there are many non fundy muslims in the world. They are your silent minority.
>>76
Two hundred Marines who died in their barracks in Beirut in 1982 would like to have a word with you.
>>77
a. Hizbollah was formed in 1985.
b. Lebanese Civil War was complex as fuck. For reals, try reading about it without going crazy.
>>78
o rly? Because I am old enough to remember reading the name "Hezbollah" in the newspapers long before 1985.
In any event, does it matter what Arab terrorists are calling themselves this week? We are at war with all of them and have been since before you were born.
no, we have been at war with them ever since we decided to back israel like if it was the 51st state of the union. its retarded. as for those marines, they were in a baracks in the middle of a fucking civil war. that doesnt make hezbolla terrorists. it means we put troops in the middle of a war zone and did not get them the fuck out. The weapons used by most middle easterners are not known for their pin point accuracy (remember the inaccurate pos that was the scud). besides, we were backing their enemies. of course they blew us up. u need to stop refering to anyone who attacks america as a terrorist. if they attack civilians as a war tactic, yes, thats terrorism. if they attack military targets, thats just conventional warfare. get over it and realize that if u get in other peoples shit, u get in harms way. putting those marines there is like stepping into a street fight between lenux luis and mike tyson out in an alley to break it up and expect not to get hurt. hezbollah has never attacked the US. our troops, maybe, but on their turf. they dont attack american companies, blow up american landmarks with planes or hijack american civilian transports. they dont fuck with anyone except israel.
>>80
We have been at war with them--or, more accurately, Islam has been at war with the rest of humanity--for 1300 years.
Yeah, totally unlike the Christians who did a bang up job on slaughtering the indigenous people of North and South America, carving up Africa, and constantly trying to make headway into Asian resources. And Christians haven't spent centuries at war with humanity?
Christianity isn't been at war with the rest of the world: Christians are. In turn, Islam isn't at war with the rest of the world: Muslims are.
Go shout "9/11" somewhere else
>>83
Yepp, u are right here. The "I am RIGHT" mentality among peoples in our world should be erased 4 good but as complex as our world is I don't think we can ever catch it up with the time (even the holy scriptures tells about this!.
In the end destruction prevails, and I am so scared now......
We pagans have hundreds of gods. Your single god gives me lulz.
Islam would be at war with the world if the book said to, and the majority of muslims believed it was. Islam is halfway there, but fortunately, the majority of muslims aren't seeing the book as it literally says. Thank the gods for figurative language.
But us rubbing dirt in their faces is onlt going to make them see the Jihad verses as the answer to their problems. Then, we'll be royally fucked.
>>82
I am an atheist. This does not mean that I am incapable of distinguishing between, on the one hand, preposterous nonsense that is mainly harmful only to those who believe it, and, on the other hand, preposterous nonsense which obligates the true believer to wage war on all nonbelievers, everywhere, forever. Christianity is merely sad. Islam is an abomination and a cancer on the human race.
>>85
We know how to wage war against superstitious savages. Our great-great-grandparents knew. I will quote from a work of fiction, but it is well-researched fiction.
"Mr. Pennell, there are only three things to remember out here. Always make them think you are in force, or will be soon. Always frighten them until they stop thinking and take refuge in Medicine. Then turn it against them, spoil its power and break it, so they can't trust anything. And always treat your luck with respect, so that it will never turn against you. This time I was going to take the patrol down and try to find Spanish Man's Grave. I wanted to show dirty uniform shirt blue down there and spoil that Medicine for them. The Apaches have been living too long on that old massacre story -- believing too much in their immunity. Flout it in their faces, show them that the gods hate them, too, and you've gone a long way toward making them behave. I want you to take the patrol down."
There haven't been any Apache raids lately, I notice. Because it worked.
good sir, Islam is one of the msot peaceful religions out there. only recently, when we westerners started carving up their land and telling them who was going to own what, did they start pointing out that these jihadist verses and interpreting them as a holy war. The word "jihad" translates to arabic as "strife" or "struggle". it means that they need to struggle to stay within the wills of thei diety. It CAN also mean holy war. Traditionally it did not. Where as chrisitians have historically killed non believers. Chrisitanity has done more harm than islam has because it has been around longer and was radicalized waaaay sooner. Christianity had the inquisitions 9spanish, roman, and vehm), the salem witch hunts, the crusades (we started that. those were muslim lands at that point and while they treated captured christians with dignity, we tortured muslim captives to death). As an agnostic, i can tell you that all religion can fall into either of the two categories that you mentioned. As for waging war with savages, as you put it, You can't. Islam, radicall or otherwise, is an idea.Toquote fiction, " Mr, Cready, behind this mask there is more than just a mask. Behind this mask is an idea and ideas are bulletproof."
Thats why we lost to the vietcong, thats why the Romans couldn't stam out the christians and were forced to adopt christianity, thats why the greeks didn't manage to beat the macabees, why Great Britain lost controll of india thanks to ghandi, and why Martin luther king was so effective. Furthermore, when used on muslims, your idea only makes things worse. If u attack their faith, you really HAVE engaged ina religious jihad with them and according to their faith, they go to heaven when they die fighting such a fight. If you believe this nonsense to be true then logic (being applied with the assumption that said nonsense is actually a fact) would dictate that they should fight just to go to heaven. they believe this is true and will therefore try to fight untill they die and you will have given them justification.
This is why i am agnostic and not atheist. atheists have the same problem the religious people do; they believe only they can be correct and fail to see othe r people's beleifs. we can neither prove nor disprove any religion so the wiser choice is to understand them all to see what motivates it's followers. I look at all religion the way most people look at greek and egyptian mythology. A collection of supernatural stories. The difference is, of course, the contemporary people believe these stories so understanding these is important. i also read this "mythology" understanding that while it is rediculously unlikely, it is possible for one or more of them to actually be true. un likely but feasable.
My impression is that the problem is the god of Christianity, islam and judaism. It is the same god. It is a cultural virus that was introduced in the Roman Empire, which was destroyed as a consequence. It is a god of guilt, with a sheepish outlook on life. If the word "god" is changed to "idea" it still makes sense.
The Greek/Roman Gods, on the other side, are Gods I can believe in. They represent all that is good in the West. They are gods with a heroic concept of life. They are human Gods, Gods with a will to live. There is a Goddess of wisdom, for example, whereas it could be argued that the middle eastern god is a god of ignorance and superstition. There is a Bacchus, the God of having a good time, whereas the middle eastern god is a god of guilt.
One reason that I don't think that this woll work in the case of Islam is that they have a version of the appocalypse which includes the destruction of Mecca. We go apeshit on them, they think it's the appocalypse. And a jihadi isn't going to give up AL-JIHAD if he thinks the world is ending -- he'll step it up.
Secondly, there are a billion muslims, and only 300 million Americans. The gods better be on our side, 'cause the math ain't. If all muslims turn on us, WE LOSE. They outnumber us 3:1. It would be like a midget going toe to toe with a WWF wrestler. Not gonna be pretty.
I think the best approach is the Akido approach, be gentle and use their energy to defeat them. Try to make them the bad guys in the muslims world.
"The gods better be on our side, 'cause the math ain't."
E=mc^2 is math.
Pakistan has nukes, and Iran is working on them. So unless you're willing to drop enough nukes to cause a potentially civilization ending nuclear winter, don't go there.
Their nukes can't reach North America. Only three country have nukes that can reach America; USA, RUSSIA, China (Alaska)...
Although France and Britian may have submarines...
The real problem is the backwards-ness of one culture. While economic fears are related to economic situations, the arguments against Islamic culture are founded in ideology.
I see this conflict as secular verses religious. What Neitche described as the weakly nature of christianity from this perspective makes it preferable to the muslim culture.
>>94
The "nuclear winter" hypothesis was discredited twenty years ago, and they would certainly do it to us in an instant if they had the means--which they work feverishly to attain, day after day.
>>96
Seems to be quite true considering that they might have their own unreleased secrets that we don't know yet.
you guys realize that while "nuclear winter" in the classic sense wouldn't occur and they cannot directly target us, they can irridiate everything, right? They won't block out the sun but if they set off enough nuke, the fall out will be spread and eventually, we will feel the effects of mass radiation poisoning. They don't even have to detonante their nukes anywhere near us or even luanch them. They can just set them off on the top of a buildinging in their own country on a particularly windy day. The radioactive particles will float around in the air and be carried over to us and everywhere in between. I assure you, even if they cannot deliver the payload here, if they feel it is the apocalypse, they will have NO problem pulling off the ULTIMATe Kamikaze attack- setting off as many nuke in their own country as possible to irridiate everyone else. so i suggest we stop making them feel like we are attacking islam. It will only make it worse. ideas are bulletproof. ideas can only be defeated by more influential ideas. If you want to eliminate radical islam, you send moderate muslim cleric over to where the radicals are recruiting the poor, offer them stable lives with jobs and food through said moderate clerics, and disguise all western interests in their land as muslim interests. The common person will not feel like they are being invaded by "infidel" forces and will slowly convert to more moderate idology. without poverty to fuel antiamerican hatred and no obvious signs of our involvement in the middle east, thy have no reaason to radicalize. remember, islam was a very peaceful religion before the west started taking their land. convince them that this isnt happeneing anymore and they will gladdly follow moderate imams. Radical islam has harsh rules that even devout muslims have a hard time living by.
>>98
1, what "moderate Muslim cleric?"
2, should we have responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor by finding "moderate Shinto clerics" and sending them to Japan?
>>99
There IS moderates in Muslim society.These guys cares nothing than their own problem instead attacking other people.
Btw, Pearl harbor attack is an act of invasion which I think not in the minds of the muslims (for wat I see) unless we really do somthing like Hiroshima, well they might be do that..
i dont mean to argue and i know christianity did this too but didn't islam spread the most because its followers basically went around killing and conquering everybody around them >_>
I heard tat in the reality, the prophet (Muhammad in this case) only dreamed about conquering countries From Turkey to Iran but I never heard about attacking European countries and Asia.
Seems that the Muslims have their own conspiracy against their own faith....
Sumtimes I wonder do they REALLY worships their god or their own DESIRE???
Unless they REALLY want another Jerusalem Wall, but this time is THEM separated to the rest of the world........
Another Alexander Iron Wall??? Or maybe like The Great Wall of China???
Heh.........
> 2, should we have responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor by finding "moderate Shinto clerics" and sending them to Japan?
you see, >>99, at that time there was a state called Great Imperial Japan which held sovereignty over the islands of Japan, Korea, much of China, SE Asia, and the Pacific. Because this state committed an act of war against the United States, casus belli was established and shortly after war was declared. Japan and her allies had control over vast swaths of territory and strong militaries.
by contrast, muslims of the plane hijacking variety do not have a state, do not have territory, do not have militaries. they cannot be conquered by lengthy naval warfare and small territorial gains finalized in tremendous bombing sprees meant to cripple their capacity to wage warfare and then occupied for a while. they cannot be conquered. they can be eliminated or converted. they cannot be conquered.
>>105
Converted?? Unless they feel oppressed in their own might be but u know the power of faith can do lots of things and seriously after wat happened in Iraq, current Iranian nuclear situation, and most popular- Palestine issue, I don't believe they can take a single word from us....
Ok, might be some of it but seriously only few will moved.....
by converted , all that is meeant is to get more moderate muslim clerics out there. the reason we dont know about them is because they arent declarring fatwas against the west but they exist. by backing them and providing financial aid to groups following them, trust me, you can get them to listen. we would have to get our military bases the fuck out of the middle east but at this rtate we wont be able to maintain them anyways.
I remember a time during Bill Clinton's era when moderates were slowly but very, very surely taking over Iran's government. But moderates I mean people who didn't buy into the theocracy and who were interested to increase relations with the rest of the world.
Today there aren't any visible ones left. Instead there are known murderers (AKA Ahmadinejad) screaming out some hilariously batshit things while the theocracy has very effectively reasserted control.
Now, why do you think that is? What changed in the past decade? What could it possibly be?
Seems like the solution is simple enough. If you stop stirring a beehive the bees eventually get bored and get back to living their lives, that religious nut on the corner be damned.
>>105
And there was once a state called the Caliphate, whose remnant bits and pieces are at war with the rest of the human race from Nigeria all the way to the Phillipines.
"Al-Qaeda" is only a useful label if you understand that it is not the actions of a few dozen. It is the id of the old Caliphate, expressed whenever there is another large-scale terrorist attack against Americans and a billion Moslems cheer and dance in the streets and burn American flags. If this is not a clear and concise declaration of war, what is it? If it is not casus belli when Arab and Moslem governmental intelligence agencies from Libya to Syria to Iran to the former Iraq to Pakistan to Saudi Arabia spy on the US and give intelligence, money and arms to them, whether they are calling themselves "Al-Qaeda" or "Hezbollah" or "Taliban" or "The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" or "Hamas" or "Al-Fatah" or "Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade," what is it?
>>108
It is time for the West to stop worrying about what the deathcultists will do. It is time for the deathcultists to begin worrying about what the West will do.
Al-Qaeda tried to destroy the Twin Towers in NYC in 1993 and again, after eight years of planning, in 2001. This despite Clinton's attempts to be all things to all people around the world.
If there is a nest of hornets, you do not worry about why they are so hostile, nor live in fear of provoking them, nor lie awake at night consumed with guilt and blaming yourself for their hatred of you. You kill every one you see and burn the nest wherever you find it. You exterminate them. And better to do it now than in our children's time.
People from Nigeria to Darfur to Israel to India to Thailand to the Phillipines are suffering right now because of our vacillation and lack of resolve. It is time to end this.
> It is time for the deathcultists to begin worrying about what the West will do.
Why do they have to worry? Now they have an endless stream of revenge-hungry young men jacked up on testosterone who would love nothing more than to attack The Clear And Present Enemy.
Cause and effect, hello? If I shoot up some of your family, regarless of your reasons, what do you think my reaction will be?
> It is time to end this.
The deluded White Man's Burden in a more modern form. Remember, them niggers need you to bring them Civilization!
> If I shoot up some of your family, regardless of my reasons, what do you think your reaction will be?
fix'd
>>110
Because Japan did in 1945, yes?
I don't care what they do or don't need, as long as I can ignore them.
America doesn't want to conquer the world. America wants to be able to ignore the world. We don't care what they need, or want. We don't care whether they love us or hate us--but if they raise a hand against us we are obligated to teach them to fear us. If they prove themselves ineducable, then they're going to have to join the dinosaurs as one of Mother Nature's little mistakes.
"America doesn't want to conquer the world. America wants to be able to ignore the world."
Fail. The Middle East wasn't radicalized until Britian - and later, the USA- went into their land and started fucking with their land. You want to be able to ignore them? Then get all your troops on planes, dismantle your military bases in their land, and come home. Thats what canada has done all these years and we made fun of them for it. Sad true, however, is that the only foreign terrorists (foreign to canada) they have ever found in Canada were terrorist cells perparing to attack who??? AMERICA. And that only happened once Canada elected Stephen Harper (bush puppet like tony blair was) and started building their military and comitting more troops to our fuckups in the middle east. All of a sudden, Canada appeared on the radar.
America does not want to be ignored. It wants to go back to the early nineties- a time when the only competing global super power (USSR) had collapsed and we were the head Nigger in Charge. We want to go into other people's house and tell them how to do shit.
"I don't care what they do or don't need, as long as I can ignore them."
This makes you a shitty person.
>>109
You fail because you assume that there is one massive muslim conspiracy against america. your arguement need a SHIT TON more tin foil. It may require the full annual ouput of reynolds wrap foil.
Many of the nations you just named have been on opposing sides of the whole shia-sunni muslim divide that has had these fuckers fighting for 600 years.
Iran was former Iraq's biggest nemesis in the region, on a scale akin to USA vs USSR.
Syria doesn't particularly care for Iran but they work together for their common enemy: Israel.
Saudi is our ally and doesn't really care about spreading islam (many clerics there do but not the government); They are just fine making money off of us (what is it now, $4.35 a gallon?)
Libya isn't an issue anymore. They were a problem back in the 80's and 90's but we scared Kidafi shitless so he stuck the cock back in his mouth and shut the fuck up.
>>113 (continued)
Pakistan could give 3 shits about us. In fact, recently their military dictatorship (not theocracy) started liking us because we started backing them. Pakistan is too busy trying to get rid of Pervez Musharaf and his regime when they are not too busy fighting India for Kashmere.
None of the countries you mentioned use their spy networks on america. The use them on Israel, to kidnap high profile people so they can trade them for their troops' freedom. Most of those Billion Muslims do not dance and cheer when our building blow up because they don't find out till much later as they dont have electricity, let alone TV. When they do, its usually because its out mega corps that financially ass rape their population by exploiting them, making it so that they ONLY available jobs where they live have 16 hour work shifts at less than a dollar a day and where they live, your companies listen to your government so America must be allowing this. If your kid comes and kicks in my door and shit on my carpet, you better believe im gonna have Beef with YOU if you dont stop him. Thats how the average muslim who lives in crushing poverty, in part because of american interests and companies, feels about us.
As for all of those muslim organisations, many of those are terorist groups but most only hate (say this with me now) ISRAEL. I have no problem withthe jews but when did JewLand become the 51st state of the USA. They can take care of them selves. They beat the crap out of 6 arab nations in a week. they dont need us to get involved. Hezbolla isn't even a terrorist group. We are one of few countries that this they are. They are an insurgent group that has been trying to get israel out of Lebanese land that Israel occupied dure that 7 day war. They only attack Israel unless outsiders try to aid israel or get in the crossfire. Incidentally, they also provide healthcare, schools and soup kitchens to the southern half of lebanon, which their government lacks the capacity to do. The taliban was not a terrorist organization but they did harbor Bin laden and they deserve to get shot up. The taliban is a theocratic regime that ruled afghanistan. and yes, we were right to kick their ass and shoulda stayed in afghanistan to finish the job, rather than going off to Iraq and letting the taliban regroup. Al Fatah WAS Arafats shitty group. Now, they are the moderates who israel actually liked. they havent dont shit in years. Its not the same group. Thats like say that the democrats of today were the democtrats of the early 1800 (pro tip: the democrats became the republican party in the 1850s).Hamas, only cares about destroying israel.
So, who is Really out to get America in the Muslim world? Bin laden. thats it. the problem is we fail so hard we cant find a 6 foot tall, 52 year old arab on dialysis in the desert with all our fucking spy satelites. Its retarded. Al Qaeda is the Great Muslim Threat.Thats it.
Iran isnt a problem because Ahmadinejad cant do shit unless Ayatollah Khamenei (the Supreme Leader of Iran, aka Ahmadinejad's boss) says its ok and so far, he thinks Ahmadinejad is a fuck up.
tl;dr
> America doesn't want to conquer the world.
Hahaha. Holy fuck.
Maybe you don't, but US leaders have a different agenda. Why do you think the US has a history of propping up dictatorships and destroying small democracies it didn't agree with?
The US is able to spend like no tomorrow because it was a master at economic warfare and cloak&dagger tactics to get favourable outcomes on foreign soil. Witness the brilliant touch of tying petroleum to the US dollar, which allows the US to export its inflation to everyone else.
The words spoken and the actions taken are very different here. Of course I won't blame you, if you're a US citizen, because you're also a victim of this apparatus (just less so).
> If they prove themselves ineducable, then they're going to have to join the dinosaurs as one of Mother Nature's little mistakes.
Wow. Us versus Them. Those Evil Inhuman bastards. You're a either a psychopath or a sheep (or both).
>>115
They started this war, not us. But we have the means to end it here and now. It is incumbent upon them to prove that they are worthy of mercy.
It is later than you think.
>>113
History demonstrates that surrender and paying the Dangeld are not viable strategies in the long run.
If I may borrow a quotation, we are not a numerous people, and no one loves us. 'Twas ever thus.
Um, no. "They" didn't start it. We did. We went into their land and started carving it up the wat we saw fit. We also did shit like set up the sha in iran (a bastard dictator so bad that the nutbad the call a president is actually an improvement) so we could preassure iraq to give us oil. When the Ayatollah overthrew the sha, we help Saddam Hussein get in power. You see how WE started it. We fuck with them all the time. we back murderous dictators in the name of "economy".
What's worse: when one of our bombers - with their laser guided technology on planes that cost millions of dollars each- drop million dollar bombs on schools and housing "by accident (implying either the pilot was a dick or an incompetent moron) we call it "collateral damage" and move on. Shit like that pisses people off. Then Some butthurt arab, who is jealous because his country asked the US to back them up militarily instead of stead of his paramilitary group, decides to recrit from the masses that we have been fucking over. He also notices they share his religion and he uses this fact to convince them that killing Americans is ok. Thus, we have alqaeda. It isnt all of the middle east. It certainly isnt all muslims. and we cant bomb them because they dont have 1 country. They live all over the world. unless you suggest bombing the whole world.
Um, people loved us until Teddy rosevelt decided it would be a good idea to start fucking with people and break with a century-old policy of "trade with others and mind your business (read isolationism aka what Canada and switzerland do) and opted for imperialism (remember panama?). we are also quite numerous. almost 400 Million people served, sir. If by "paying the Dangled" you are reffering to proxy warfair and control, you are wrong. having proxies doing all the unfavorable chores for a price was key to every great empire. Name one empire that succeeded without doing this
> Name one empire that succeeded without doing this
My empire.
On cheat mode I steamrolled all those other pesky civilizations before making it to Alpha Centuri on a lark.
> unless you suggest bombing the whole world.
No, but I do recommend beginning with Mecca, Medina, and Tehran, and I further recommend cobalt bombs, to send the proper message.
> This makes you a shitty person.
And you're a big doodyhead. There, I win.
on what basis do you suggest bombing mecca, medina, and tehran. None of those cities have anything to do with us getting attacked. the people who SUICE BOMB do NOT fear being BOMBED! ASSHAT!
>>120
thus the next muslim countries who are u not mentioned will started to raining down their secret "black project" nukes (remember, u just say Tehran not WHOLE Iran!).
later, the next massive attacks more fearsome than the Japanese invasion might appear, justifying the act to invade and conquering the WHOLE country!
read the history of mecca itself fools! it is mentioned that the Kaaba itself suffers damages time by time and mecca DID being attacked before. Yet, it still there!
even if we are so powerful enough to banished all the muslims in the world to the endless outer space they still can tracked mecca as their holy place (they always facing there to pray remember...) or should i said EARTH and even though there is no more arabia, no more mecca and other holy places the LAND WAS STILL THERE! they will always come bak.
unless just like 118 said. if u think by destroying our world, our beautiful ecosystem with those stupid weapons pollutions manifesting earth..........man.......u such a great messiah!
and being living in nothingness is cool to me....
gentlemen, let us dance in Danse Macabre style! :)
Yes, yes, yes. I know. "OMG teh SUICIDE KOMMANDOZ r FEARLESS! If u kill them there will just b MOAR!"
The Japanese had suicide fanatics too.
We dealt with that problem by destroying the culture and religion that produced them. I propose to solve the Islam problem in the same manner. It would certainly be cheaper than an occupation army and generations-long attempts, probably doomed to failure, to force first Iraq and then the rest of the region to become Western-style peaceful parliamentary democracies.
All of them put together are not worth one American life, nor one cent of the American taxpayers' money, but I do see justification for repayment of debts in plutonium.
They started this war, they chose the rules of engagement. They can hardly complain.
>>126
But wat about our ecosystem dude?? Destroying one civillizaion than spans a numerous nations needs a lot of powerful weapons. Then after we sweep those guys away, all those dirty mines, chemical residues , nuclear clouds, anything after the aftermath of the war might be spread out man....
Being killed is one thing but being living in that condition is worse, considering muslims have legs to go wherever they want...
Our earth is one.....just one.....
(suddenly the whole thread ignores me.....)
>>126
is a Christian and American supremacy maniac!
>>128
I am an atheist, not a Christian. And you're a big doodyhead, so I win.
Here's another hilarious one that popped out at me as I was re-reading the thread:
> Um, people loved us until Teddy rosevelt decided it would be a good idea to start fucking with people
Who are these people? Do you mean the British, who invaded us in 1812 and threatened war in 1863 because the US Navy seized British merchant vessels carrying weapons to the Confederacy? Do you mean the French and Spanish, who were likewise so morally horrified by slavery that they spent the Civil War doing a very profitable business selling arms to the Confederates?
Or are you talking about the period after the war? Here, have a look at European attitudes toward the US during the Victorian Era:
That's "Shooting Niagara," by one Thomas Carlyle, 1867.
So, please explain to me, who "loved us?" Who EVER "loved" America, other than maybe certain Western European powers who found themselves in need of rescue from the Germans? And how many minutes did their deep and abiding affection last once the shooting stopped?
Who are "they?" The Barbary Pirates, perhaps? The Newfoundland Privateers? Who?
>>129
Opss....sorry...being a pacifist sometimes does help :(
Opss....sorry...being a pacifist sometimes doesn't help :(
fixed