I'm in love with a fictional character. No, not infatuated. I love this man (I'm a girl). I don't feel the same way about anyone else, real or not. I know a a lot of people who want to date me, so it's not that I can't get a real boy or girlfriend. It's just I don't want them.
I think about him all the time. I didn't start out even attracted to him but after years of playing the games I fell in love with him and like I really know him. It's not just that he represents the ideal partner to me, even if I found a real person like that, I wouldn't care. I only love him.
Is anyone else in this situation? How do they deal with it?
If not, do you think I'm crazy? Just tell me your thoughts on this situation, please.
>>33-34
This is the first time I've ever seen Q.E.D. used online properly, and in a manner that completely convinced me too.
Of course, from your argument stems an interesting point: Hollywood is a clear study in the heteronormative male gaze, yet it is, for the most part, completely accepted by the female population. A couple goes to a movie; a giant apparition that bleeds sex appears on the screen, more skin than cloth, the man loves it and the girl seems to enjoy it too. Perhaps the objectification of women is not clear until it is taken a step further: to ink and paint.
Though we have become accustomed to seeing 'real' women as sex objects, the fantastical aspect emerges much more clearly in Japanese erotic drawings. They are highly stylized, catered particular to male desire, and thus there is no semblance of humanity. At least fleshy Hollywood sex stars - or even fleshy porn stars - 'look real,' but the posters are clearly things. Their lack of humanity is immediately apparent; they are only candy to be devoured by men. Hollywood, by the simple reality of their stars, professes to give these sex objects power and personality, and we believe it. It becomes normal to objectify these 'real women.'
This is the fundamental difference between a pin-up of a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model and one of a bikini-clad anime girl. The former tricks us into a comfortable sense of reality, while the latter disturbingly reminds us that all this is simply fantasy: thus you, >>33-34, will be seen as a freak, a man alienated from the rest of society, because you have apparently heavily retreated into fantasy. But the sad truth is that all of us live in fantasy - none of us truly reside in the reality that so many call 'real life.'
It wouldn't be ketsuron without ketsu.
>>36
I pretty much agree, but would stretch the point further. Female tolerance towards manga pin-ups depends on the cultural context. In Western Europe comics are mainstream, and it does not seem outlandish to have pictures of scantily clad women, even if you are in a couple.
For instance, I know a couple where this (http://bdillustrations.free.fr/diLoiselR1.jpg) kind of pictures hang in the living room.
Actually, I have an even better example. I draw pictures of naked women from porn sites, since it's an easy source material to train body proportions (yes, it's a skewed female subset). Anyway one day I was livid when I saw that my wife pinned some of my sketches in the living room... And it turns out that I never got any negative feedback, even from older generation people.
So three points here:
>> 33
>> Experience has shown me that while pictures of flesh and blood girls in bikinis are considered an acceptable part of hetrosexual male life, pictures of ink and paint girls in same are not. I know this, yet I'm not willing to throw away my collection.
That is so true. I finally understood something is not quite right when my non-otaku, non-nerd, fairly moderately geeky if not normal friends started giving me otaku related objects for presents... It shocked me so deeply that I can't quite describe it. Basically I got rid of almost all otaku related stuff I had and only kept the dvd's of the shows I collected so far of off internet and about 10 mangas & comics. Everything else was either thrown away or given away.
It's easier for people to understand if a guy watches a porn movie or a mag from time to time - but it's near to impossible to explain a poster with Belldandy or Lacus Clyne, let alone a bikini-clad anime gal. Or a figurine of an anime girl in very skimpy bikini. For I have been a fairly open otaku and now am not - I understand this on a personal level. I have it in my mind that to have a real relationship with a real woman overrules any of my otaku needs.
>>39 I forgot to mention why it bothers me that my friends give me otaku stuff: though I am into anime and manga, I have never actively collected any posters, no figurines and very few mangas and original DVDs. I only printed a few images of off deviantart and pinned them. I never actually got any negative feedback for this hobby of mine, even my mother liked the stuff I drew, and my father never bothered me to much about the "cartoons".
When I started to receive otaku related gifts it felt kinda strange. As the stuff pilled it got weird. And after I saw what otakus keep in their rooms on their shelves I noticed suddenly that my room is starting to look like an otaku room without me actually actively collecting the stuff! As I've explained it the previous paragraph I never collected any of this myself.
And then I saw Densha Otoko. The movie and the drama. It clicked in me - noooooooooo way I want this livestyle :O_o"" So I rolled back to the way I used to be before all of this started and am now trying to keep my interest into anime for myself because I really don't need my friends to give me this stuff. It's scaring me. I'm into it for "cartoons" and illustration - I'm not quite the stereotype otaku.
So that's why I got so upset with all of that.
>>40 Uh oh - and to be fair to the OP: Yes, I had (have?) a crush on Belldandy ^_^" If I should be so lucky it'd be nice to meet and date a girl like her.
>>40
thats a closet otaku, and its good to be one. enjoying anime shouldn't be that big of deal that one should advertise it to everyone.
>>tolerance depends on the cultural context. Probably in more puritanic societies this wouldn't fly.
Well, I live in the rural northern United States -- near the Canadian border. People here are fundamentalist with respect to religion and exceptionally brittle with respect to body-image issues. I don't discuss my interests with anyone, and I've never once been given reason to regret (or even reconsider) this policy.
I trust the folks up here about as far as I can throw them. Seeing as how I'm a nerd, that isn't very far at all.
Basically, where we are at in this conversation is R/L women and their intolerance of female objectification, am I right? Have you spoken with R/L fujoushi? These girls objectify anime/J-rock men to an extent that I'd deem just as unhealthy as the extreme objectification of women male otaku enjoy with their eroanime merchandise.
Has everyone on this board only met with yuppie prep girls and extreme feminists?? When you describe "girl geeks", I can hardly believe that you've met a real, hardcore fujoushi. If anything, the hardest part of getting a fujoushi interested is proving that you can give her more than her eyecandy yaoi fantasies. Fujoushi don't care about objectification; they objectify men just as much as otaku objectify women. The question they're more likely to ask is if you are ready to worship their bodies and their sexuality as easily as you are able to worship the bodies and sex of these ink and paper beauties.
Further than that, I can see both otaku and fujoushi having difficulties relating to their mates as people rather than things to be used. Neither one is all that interested in reality and its inconveniences. Nothing is more inconvenient than compromising ones lifestyle to include the wants and needs of another person.
That said, my suggestion to any hardcore fan is to take a hard look at their romantic priorities. Are you ready to accept another person's life as a part of your own? Can you put your needs aside for someone else's sake? Is having the warmth and support of another person worth having to support and cherish them? The reason young teens go ga-ga over boy bands and pop stars is that they aren't ready for another person in their lives and so vent their sexual frustration in fantasy. This is where the otaku and fujoushi seem to be permanently(?) stuck. Decide whether you are ready to move past this. If not, continue with your fantasy. You won't be hurt this way, but sometimes you really do need to hurt to feel anything at all.
>>44 Was ready to do what you say, she wasn't... got hurt, got over it, and am ready to do it all again. Does that mean I'm no longer an otaku?
No, just that you're a glutton for punishment.
>>Fujoushi don't care about objectification; they objectify men just as much as otaku objectify women. The question they're more likely to ask is if you are ready to worship their bodies and their sexuality as easily as you are able to worship the bodies and sex of these ink and paper beauties.
Isn't that a two-way street, though? I kind of shudder at the thought of anyone worshipping my sexuality.
And ultimately, I don't even think it's possible, really, to worship the sexuality of a flesh-and-blood person the same way that one can worship the sexuality of an ink-and-paint one. Real girls, unsurprisingly, are real people, with all the faults and foibles that such status suggests. They're concerned with securing the Gruenemayer account before the end of the quarter, taking the car in for warranty-covered recall work, crunching figures to maximise the employer contribution to the 401(k) -- the same sort of trifling banalities that people go through every day.
And then you've got health issues, stress, whose turn is it to wash the dishes tonight, what do you think about having kids, and when are you going to let me meet your parents, anyway. Frankly, I can't even imagine how sex fits into that sort of relationship framework.
But with ink-and-paint girls, everything is beautifully simple. Those trifling banalities of everyday life are mercifully absent, and we find the girl able to explore the full depth of her charm -- especially when a talented scenario writer mans the helm. But even within a single illustration, we can discern a rich visual narrative that tells a far more compelling, and endearing, story than can any real-life episode.
Take a magazine spread, again of Louise from Zero no Tsukaima. She's sitting on a bed, wearing a one-piece black summer dress with frilly straps and trim, a white bow over her breastbone, and creamy-white knee socks. Flanking Louise on the bed are her older sisters, Eleanor and Cattleya. The sisters are fixing up Louise's hair, each taking half and fashioning it into one of a pair of pigtailed braids. Louise appears to be embarrased by the attention -- an uncertain, slightly vulnerable expression shows on her face. She tucks her arms between her legs in a timid, evasive gesture. In the extreme foreground rest a pair of fancy, high-heeled sandals and a matching yellow dress, much more formal than the slip that Louise currently wears.
The narrative in this image is clear: Louise's sisters are dressing her up, perhaps for an event, perhaps for something less formal. Either way, she doesn't seem as enthusiastic about the activity as they are. This precious, almost voyeuristic look into Louise's private life touches the soul in a number of ways.
(cont'd next post)
(cont'd from previous post)
Firstly, it presents an isolated moment in time. We can conjecture as to what occurred in the time before the occurrance of the image, and what will come after, but the only time of significance is the present that exists in the image. There are no trifling banalities present within the image, and since the image lacks a past or future, there have been and will be no such blemishes.
Secondly, the image shows us a contrast in character. Normally, Louise carries herself around with a feisty and combative demeanor, yet in this image, we see her more vulnerable. She is unguarded, and in this special moment we can see the true dimensions of her personality shine in all their brilliance.
And lastly, there is the issue of aesthetic space to consider. When Heidegger wrote of the work of art, he noted that the work has a transportative quality. Art serves the same functions as did the temples of old: both serve to connect the interloper with something beyond himself. The temple transports the pilgrim into the realm of the divine, even though his body remains on earth. The work transports the viewer into the realm of art, even though he remains physically standing in front of it at the gallery. Because of this transportative quality, the image of Louise has an unreality about it that cannot merely be attributed to its nature as an abstracted work of ink and paint (or in this case, I suppose, ink and halftone).
>>44, you wrote about fantasy being the vehicle through which young teens, otaku, and fujoushi "vent their sexual frustration". Part of the reason, I think, that illustrations of men and women can instill the same reaction among educated adults as flesh-and-blood pop stars can among teens is that, through the transportative qualities of the illustration's power as a work of art, the illustration ushers the viewer into a more potent realm of fantasy than that possible in real life. Within the pure aesthetic space encompassed by the image, fantasy reigns supreme, unencumbered by those trifling banalities that I wrote of earlier. For the one abstract moment in time depicted in the work, the viewer leaves himself to visit that encapsulated aesthetic space wherein the true personality of the work's subject is revealed.
The work, this illustration, then, provides for a transcendent experience. (I wouldn't call it an out-of-body experience -- that phrase carries spiritualist connotations that do not apply to this particular situation.) That transcendency, by definition, offers an experience that cannot be replicated in real life. If we love the work for the experience that it provides, then it stands to reason that we cannot love anything flesh-and-blood in the same manner. A real person may be able to do many things for another, but can never transport that other into the pure aesthetic space of art. That remains the exclusive domain of the work, which is why we otaku do what we do.
At least, that's my theory of it.
this is like the best thread in forever
i really dont understand why you had to choose that man when there are so many nice guys in the world. But too late. everything's too late. u probably cant change ur mind anyway. so, my advice is u go your own way.
> That transcendency, by definition, offers an experience that cannot be replicated in real life. If we love the work for the experience that it provides, then it stands to reason that we cannot love anything flesh-and-blood in the same manner. A real person may be able to do many things for another, but can never transport that other into the pure aesthetic space of art.
I disagree,... A real person can indeed have this kind of impact in other people. And this is because a person can also abstract itself from the banality of everyday life.
Take the example of a husband long deceased. The widow will gradually develop the same type of transport for her husband as an otaku for his favorite character. Same thing for the person who was dumped/separated from a partner which she still loves.
(continued)
Separation in time or in space can have the same effect of idealization of the other person.
Can you achieve the same results without separation? I believe so, as long as you achieve a psychological separation between the two persons. A charismatic leader of a sect can maintain his aura among followers despite a routine contact because it achieved a role separation that renders him immune to "banatily contamination".
If you are lead to believe that a person is profoundly different from you, that she is at "another level", you can idealize it even without separation, because your imagination is given space and freedom to fill the psychological gap that separates them.
>>1... Might this fictional character be named sephiroth by any chance?
At least you're not alone. Many girls have fallen in love with fictional characters, most commonly sephiroth lol. You just don't hear about it because almost nobody is willing to admit to such deep feelings for a fictional character.
I've experienced something similar, I wouldn't call it love, but very strong feelings for a fictional character [no, not sephiroth lol]
Here are my strategies for dealing with it :)
Finding beauty in the world of art, where perfection is possible, has been an activity for a long time. But the key danger is this: escape from reality ultimately ends up leaving one empty.
The lack of humanity in perfection is no new idea. Dystopian/utopian literature has expressed this concept again and again. Understanding other people, seeing their flaws and forgiving them - is where the warmth of soul truly lies. Humanity's imperfection is what makes us human. Perfection in the form of anime girls is inherently beautiful, I will not argue that. Yet this beauty becomes dangerous, because it is inhuman. Once we lose our ability to appreciate and respect other humans in all their flaws, we fail to function in society, and are doomed to loneliness. Those beautiful anime girls will not keep you company when you wake up one day and realize how alone you really are.
Is that fictional character Sephiroth? If it is, then he's taken.
Actually, it would be interesting to imagine what would real life routine be with a fictional character,... ;-)
If somehow the favorite character would come to IRL and have a relationship with the person. Guess it would be an unmitigated catastrophy
>>1
It's Jesus, isn't it?
No, people, it's NOT Sephiroth. Or Jesus, though that did make me laugh. You guys have seriously made some interesting points...Also, about the astral projection thing...could I get more information on how to do it and why it helps my situation?
But then again real-life relationships aren't a bucket of peaches either. I don't think sex and marriage make for moral development or growth of personality and warmth. I hesitate even to say that it could help mature people, considering our present divorce rates. So much human personal strife, stress, and violence is involved in these relationships. It's like praising the virtues of nations without mentioning the wars or harmful nationalism, or mass-stupidity that have been the hallmarks of the last century.
There is a danger that our generation is having a very hard time growing up. Part of this translates into marrying later and having fewer if any children. Japan has had this problem for quite some time now. But I wonder if this is a problem or the result of a healthier society.
But really, I don't think human humanity is particularly "human", if that makes any sense. At least not particularly more human than our art can render it. The things we remember about past civilizations, the things we consider the best when we think of humans, are usually art-related, because I guess at the end of the day we like living in our heads, at least we introverts do. I've always believed life imitates art in many profound ways.
But it's important that even extreme introverts no how to live with people, or we fail as a society. Some of our most revered humans, revered for their humanity, are monks who never marry anyone. They isolate themselves in meditation retreats for long stretches of time. But they do live together in close proximity when not on retreat.
anyway, /rant.
>>38 is too right. Especially
>If your place is absolutely covered with the stuff, or if you are embarrassed by it, people will find it strange, the same way I would feel strange if someone covered every surface of their place with train pictures.
>>44
>Basically, where we are at in this conversation is R/L women and their intolerance of female objectification, am I right?
Thing is, everybody objectifies other people, because they're external. The important difference is if you constantly reduce people to stereotypes or not. To mention what someone else said: If you keep treating other people like objects that exist for your sole usage, you're an egocentric bastard and you'll never feel truly happy. But if you from time to time objectize a set of ideas, such as an idea of what kind of girl you'd like in your life, there's nothing wrong with it. As long as you never forget that ideas are exactly that - a simplified reality with heavy focus on desirable points. Everything has its pros and cons, people just tend to forget the cons when they're too busy swooning over the pros.
>A real person may be able to do many things for another, but can never transport that other into the pure aesthetic space of art.
You'd be surprised. This without being separated from the person. It's also claimed that marriages where the partners see each other through the pink glasses of mushiness are the ones that last the longest and are the happiest. I can attest to that this doesn't mean that you have to be unrealistic. It just means you'll happilly forgive them for the small mistakes they make, as long as they don't make a habit of it and learn from their experiences. This goes both ways, by the way.
And now, some random posts I found at 2ch which I got reminded of when reading this thread:
>539 ：名無しさん＠英語勉強中：2007/10/24(水) 02:38:45
>ttp://hss.fullerton.edu/sociology/orleans/symmetry.txt
>For Johnston, the real fun starts after the judging is finished. By collecting people's ideal faces and comparing them to average faces, he can measure the distance between fantasy and reality. As a rule, he finds that an ideal female has a higher forehead than an average one, as well as fuller lips, a shorter jaw and a smaller chin and nose. Indeed, the ideal 25-year-old woman, as configured by participants in a 1993 study, had a 14-year-old's abundant lips and an 11-year-old's delicate jaw. Because her lower face was so small, she also had relatively prominent eyes and cheekbones.
>540 ：名無しさん＠英語勉強中：2007/10/24(水) 02:50:12
>"Indeed, the ideal 25-year-old woman, as configured by participants in a 1993 study, had a 14-year-old's abundant lips and an 11-year-old's delicate jaw. Because her lower face was so small, she also had relatively prominent eyes and cheekbones. "
>Woah, no wonder anime girls are so popular!
